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 Nationality of Alexander the great

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Scion

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:49 am

Well Epitus is an interesting province. It was populated by Illyrians, maybe only ruled by Greek nobles. The city Apolonia was turned to spread Greek culture or it was build by Greeks, either way, It was a colony. In later events Illyrians burned it in their riot against Rome because it was populated by Greeks and Romans.

Also: Alexanders mother is said to be an actual Illyrian.

Maybe that was the reason to Phillips attitude of being very distant to Alexander and her mother. They where not pure Macedonian neither Greek. But the other hand, would Macedonians have accept a not-pure Macedonian leader?
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jonasnee

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:20 am

Alexander the great was a Macedonian, besides epirus (to this day) is a province in west Greece.
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Bellisk

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:02 pm

lol, well it isn't only HBO also a lot of fans, I think. But yeah he writes some great books and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.

Does this mean you're also a reader of fantasy literature?
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Scion

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:06 pm

Mr. Martin got his inspiration from many places I think. I hope he is able to make the rest of the books good, even though HBO is poking him to hurry Very Happy
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Bellisk

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:36 pm

Most swiss aren't related to the Helvetii, most don't even know such a tribe existed. But a lot of tribes lived in this region and traveled and mixed together so theres no clear saying who when and where. Especially since it never really stopped. People migrating all over the place. And everyone thinks todays immigrants are the worst. It's kinda funny because the Hugenotten came over from france somewhere around 1800 and they started that whole watch business. So if were honest that cliché watch thing the swiss have? Immigrants.

To be honest I know next to nothing about the Balkan Penninsula but it sounds pretty interesting as well. Also I only know of "Phyrric" as in Phyrric "Victory". I knew that it somewhere had a person at its root but didn't know that he actually was this interesting Person.

Also it seems you know your history a lot better than I do. Hat off to you sir. And yes those similarities are quite fitting, although I once heard that the red wedding was directly taken from a scottish event during the middle ages. Can't say which one though.
People like G. R. R. Martin gotta get inspiration from somewhere though right  Smile 
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Scion

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:26 pm

That was interesting. I didn't know what heroic symbols Swiss has. Also I don't know if they even are descendeants of Helvetii.

My parents are Albanians, so I was raised to believe that we are descentands of Illyrians. Actually Illyrians used to live in western Balkan, and got mixed with Celts, Huns, Slavics, Greeks, Thracians. Latest gene studies are able to show some kind of typical gene distribution to identify the actual movement of a nation. Albanians seem to have descend from middle Balkan where they have been isolated for hundreds of years. Actually mixing together maybe Macedonian, Illyrian, Thracian and Dacians, we don't know, but they did emerge from what ever genes there where. Epirus got flooded by them and becoming Albanians in 19th century. Of course Albanians never believed that THEY would be the immigrants, they even say that original Greeks talked Albanian. And I'm not kidding...
Alexander, Pyrrhic and Teuta who knows even Troyans spoke "Albanian" according to them.

I would like to find a good book series about Pyrrhic though. I think he had very interesting life. Being an hostage at Egypt for his childhood, taking Epirus back and becoming king. He was the first to fight Romans and used elephants to breach legions. He won against Carthago at Sicily, fought for the throne of Macedon (being also entitled to the crown). And in the end he died in the Spartan settlement fighting against them. What a story huh?!

I think that some historic events turned into a story like Game of Thrones. Think about Julius Caesar. Events started with Marius vs. Sulla > then to Pompei vs Mithridates > Then Pompei vs Spartacus > Julius vs Areovistus > Julius vs Vercingetorix > Julius vs Pompei > Julius vs Ptolemaios 4? > Brutus killing Julius > Cicero+Brutus vs Octavianus+Antonius and in the end Octavianus vs Antonius.
-Sounds like a story written by R.R. Martin to me Razz
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Bellisk

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PostSubject: Re: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:33 am

I usually keep as far away from these "discussions" as possible because in the end it's merely a shouting contest.

Additionally most nations were created between 1600 and late 18th century and in that creation process most nations also created legends and myths that would strengthen peoples pride in their nation. For example in Switzerland we have legend of Willhelm Tell, which a lot of you guys probably have heard of. That story though was written by a famous german author called Schiller. It's a fairy tale, basically. We also have the figure of Helvetia the female warrior icon that somehow represents the swiss ideals. She was also made up.
In the region where Switzerland today is located there were a lot of tribes and I think four or five were actually relatively big. And in the making of our nation someone simply picked a tribe called the Helvetae (don't know exact way to write the name) and made them our forefathers.

I heard similar things for other countries. For example apparently in the middle ages no one in scottland wore kilts only after 1700 when it was finally introduced did it become a national thing.

Anyway the point is it is impossible for a nation so survive over 2000 years as the same. Or at least in the more modern times (lest we forget the egyptians). To make up for this a lot of nations created these myths and legends for themselves to strengthen the common spirit and national pride.
In some regions of the world tribes left regions and new tribes began living there and these people were conquered and so forth. Meaning that at the same place over a relatively short period of time lots of different people can live, die and even mix creating basically a new hybrid culture.

Which leads to the thing about macedonia. I heard that it originally was similar to the greeks but not the same. Meaning that they shared quite some cultural and social traditions. So to call them cousins is quite fitting, I think. Although if it weren't for Alexander and his father the greeks would maybe still call the macedonians barbarians.
Then after lots of stuff happened different cultures settled and mingled on that penninsula and lots of stuff happened and now there's a slavic nation called macedonia that has nothing to do with the old macedonians, except maybe location. Of course the new macedonia and people that don't care to actually research any of this like to think that they are one and the same. And the greeks may think that because the old macedonians were somewhat similar to the ancient greeks they can call Alexander theirs.

Of course both are false assumptions. But people generally don't care that much.

And to finish I think it's very difficult to compare generals of different circumstances. Because there are an almost infinite amount of variables that can't possibly all be considered. And sometimes for some generals it worked out and for others it didn't. So to say that one is greater because he won more battles or greater battles is wrong, at least according to me.

As Sun Tzu said to win a hundred battles by fighting is easy to win them without fighting is difficult.


(phew, sorry for the long post)
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Scion

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PostSubject: Nationality of Alexander the great   Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:46 am

I just read a post on Rome 2 facebook page.
I couldn't help but read what people had said about Alexanders nationality, and it was terrible!
Seems like no one cares of actual facts, or making a background check. All they know is to yell what they would like the history to be, rather than trying to find out the reality.

I did try to find out what nations survived through ages filled with wars and genocides. Seems like no actual ancient nations have survived all the way to present, not at least "as pure" as they where back then.

Macedonia of Alexander doesn't exist at all. It's name was reinstated at 19th century by a mixed balkanic nations. Also Greeks like to claim everything great to be descented from the Greeks. Alexanders mother was from Epirus, but she might have been actually Illyrian. For Epirus was Greek colony on Illyrian soil.
Phillip the second was a great Macedonian man. Thanks to him Macedonia became famous, and Greeks accepted Macedonia as their cousin.

Also I don't think that Alexander was greater than many other general like Phyrric, Hannibal Barca, Julius Caesar, Seleucid the second etc...
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